Organic Produce vs. Regular???

Organic practices make for healthy soil, and healthy soil makes for healthier produce.

Lynn Siprelle, Editor

Ditto what Lynn said. Also I think organic tastes better, especially meat and vegetables. The vegetable varieties are chosen for taste and natural resistance to pests, rather than for shelf life or attractiveness. We eat only organic meat and veg - all from local farmers; DH uses organic flour of various kinds to make our bread; the majority of our dairy produce is organic; I also tend to get organic dried pulses. However, there are some things on which the mark-up is too great for our rather limited budget - dried fruit, for example. I also tend to choose local non-organic over air-frieghted organic when it comes to fruit: cuts out air miles and supports local farmers.

Having begun buying organic produce around 10 years ago, it's now become part of the way we shop and eat. For veg, meat, flour and milk, I wouldn't do anything else now. Otherwise it comes down to questions about cost, local-ness and quality.

Zillah

The pesticides on some fruits and veggies, like peaches, apples, and lettuce, have tested off the charts. And that's AFTER they've been washed and peeled, etc. Pesticides are really, really bad for you to breathe, drink, or ingest, especially children. I shop with a "Dirty Dozen" list.

Our overall health has improved since we've started shopping organic. My hair is thicker, my and my DH's intenstinal woes have eased considerably, and so on.

I'm not 100% organic, but I do what I can. Not only is it healthier for you and the environment but it can also mean better conditions for the farmworkers who tend and harvest the crops if, in addition, it's fair trade.

Anhata
www.familynaturally.com
Your Family's General Store, Naturally

I agree that organic is always best. We have been buying fresh produce from our local farmers. I can usually freeze enough vegys to last us through the winter months. I can really see a difference in the green peppers I buy from our farmers and the large "perfect" ones that are sold in the stores. The ones from the garden still smell like a real pepper:)

My specific concern is rBGH/rBST, which is banned in almost every other country which produces and consumes dairy products.

We purchase a whole lamb every year, which is not USDA-certified organic, but it is grown locally and I feel comfortable with this particular farm's practices.

We love, love, love our organic coffee!

I grow much of our own veggies using our own compost for fertilizer. Again, that's not USDA-certified organic but I'm comfortable with my practices

I wish we had a Wegman's here!

Rose, are those the growth hormones you are referring to? I should look into buying local meat - we live in a county where agriculture is the primary industry. Yes, Wegmans is great - a bit more expensive at certain times, but worth it usually, it is a great family business and great employer. They contribute millions of dollars to the local charities, parochial schools, etc.

I would like to hear more on this subject because I think I will be making a change soon.
Andrea

Yes, those are synthetic growth hormones. rBST = recombinant Bovine Somatotropic Hormone. Here is a wikipedia article about it, and yes, the neutrality of that article is disputed. I have read quite a bit about rBST, and I will happily pay twice the price for organic milk.

Here is a good starting point for finding local grass-fed meat.

I enjoy Wegman's. The closest one to me is in Syracuse, which is about an hour south of me. It's fun to stop in there on the way back from the 'Cuse. I see that Wegman's is sponsoring/underwriting Jason McElwain's talk/appearance at the ViaNet fundraiser in Bethlehem PA tomorrow. I still get totally verklempt when I watch the footage of his awesome game last year!

I agree with pretty much everyone, but I also understand the cost issue. In trying to work a budget around being an almost full time SAH mom, the difference between organin and not can be significant.

I agree that organic is all around better for the environment and the lack of pesticides is great. But, you also have to weigh it with the fact that organic means they use organic fertilizers as well which has the chance of introducing bacteria into the mix that can be harmful. For cooked veggies it's totally not an issue. But with salad mixes and veggies you eat raw, you have to wash and wash well to make sure you remove any residue from the fertilizers the same as the pesticides on regular produce. Basically organic fertiliers are a nice name for a variety of poops used.

Now, don't jump on me too bad, I am NOT ANTIORGANIC!!!!!!

I just feel that people should be informed from both sides so they can make the decision that they feel is best for their family. I made all my own baby food for my youngest and about 50% for my oldest so I had to make this decision many times for my infants. For the most part, I chose organics when available since I was cooking them for babyfood first. But, it would be hard for me to give my infant a raw carrot to teeth on if it was organic without first using a produce wash on it. Then, that puts me in the same boat as if it was regular produce. So then it comes down to the cost and environmental effects and that to me is a personal issue.

For a normally healthy adult, the bacteria that may occur on organic isn't an issue. You may get an upset stomach or flu like symptoms if exposed and not all organic produce will carry it. But for a person with a compromised immune system, an infant, young child, or elderly person, if exposed, it could be very serious. So, buy what you feel is safest for your family and has the best moral outcome you can afford and sleep with at night!

Again, please don't kill me! I come in peace! (cower, cower)

so we try not to kill too many newbies, at least not on an empty stomach!

Andrea, I've been increasing the amount of organic produce I buy since we first got back to the UK nearly 2yrs ago ( - is it really that long!). We now have almost exclusively organic milk, though mainly because it actually seems to last much longer. It's hard to find on a Friday night when I shop though (kids are at judo then). Our meat is mostly either organic or from a reputable butcher in the next town (which gets most of its meat from a local agricultural college). That's fresh meat though - it excludes me sourcing organic ham, peperoni, or worrying that my pizza isn't organic. And I'm not going to panic about what I eat in restaurants too much. I check the organic veg first before picking the rest from elsewhere. We have some good farmers markets but I rarely remember to get there once a month. Cheese is usually not organic but my eggs usually are. Some of my canned goods are now organic too, like tomatoes and coconut milk, but mostly I just buy whatever I usually buy.

My personal feel is that I should increase the amount of "good food" to offset the times when I don't have organic foods, so I don't go completely crazy about it. Organic meats will deinitely set you back though - GBP10 for a single organic chicken!?!?! That's nearly 20 bucks to you guys. It's a trade-off to begin with I think. If you gradually increase it you tend not to notice the difference in your grocery bill so much. Non-food items are usually not organic or especially eco-friendly, except I like the Ecover washing-up liquid, and I try to buy recycled kitchen paper, since I feel so bad about using kitchen paper in the first place (I HATE dirty dishcloths!).

I think if you're already getting a basic healthy diet and aren't struggling with money so much that you can't get simple balanced meals on the table then organic produce is probably something you should be working towards. The more we support it the cheaper and more widely available it will become which benefits us all in the longer run. I know that not everybody can afford the extra money for organic stuff, but I can afford some of it so I kinda feel it's my duty to keep organic food in the mainstream. Milk and eggs are a good place to start because they're widely available. The day our local supermarkets sell an organic loaf of bread in the silver wrappers I will regularly start on organic bread, but no loaf lasts long here somehow unless it's in one of those brilliant foil wrappers.

just because most of the people who have posted are in favour of buying organic doesn't mean people who have reservtions shouldn't post - we LOVE debate! There are rumours that not all of the stuff which is supposed to be organic actually is... what's anyone's take on that?

Kerri.

This is interesting - keep posting! Wegmans sells a lot of organic items - the produce section keeps getting bigger and the cost is going down - sonetimes only a bit above the regular. Maybe I"ll start there. Not sure if they carry the milk. Time is an issue for me, so I really would like to take advantage of what they have there.

Rose, you may know that J-Mac lives near here and works at a Wegmans in Rochester in the bakery. He says it is his "dream job"! Very inspiring. For those of you who haven't heard of him, he is an autistic boy (17 or 18) who scored 6 3-pointers in a row or something like that in a basketball game last year. He was just the manager. Sorry, OT.

My in-laws went to a meeting to make their farm "organic" and the REQUIREMENTS were not much different from what they and others they know are already doing (e.g. when their cows got sick and needed meds, they don't put that milk in the tank). The biggest obstacle they hit was they were required to "buy" organic feed (they often grew their own) that was "certified organic" so that their cows' milk was sure to be better. "Certified organic" feed is much more expensive than growing their own, and they aren't even into using the toxic stuff. Plus, as for organic grains vs. non organic, the pesticides have been shown not to penetrate the husks (corn, wheat was shown pretty safe too) anyhow (see one of those top 12 to buy organic articles). So, there's my take.

As for milk hormones, you do realize that cows produce the hormone they are given naturally as well, right? When I was having a hard time nursing my child, I was put on a hormone drop to increase lactation. I was worried--wouldn't it go into my milk? My daughter would develop early? EEK!! Even the local herbalist said "Nope, won't hurt your daughter. You make this hormone anyway, increasing it just effects you." Anyhow, DD is almost 2 now, developed wonderfully. My thoughts on that matter are, if my taking extra hormones didn't go into my milk, why would a cow be any different? We have gone back to regular milk (but do drink the stuff on our dairy when close enough to home). I don't like the idea of it being IN the meat, however, that we eat. BUT, many of these hormones are going to be there naturally in a animal bred for growth, so if you REALLY want to avoid them, go veg. We aren't, still enjoy a good steak.
Anyhow, as for what we DO: We garden our own, and try to buy at the local farmer's market (luckily, it's open year round in Indiana), organic or not. Having tried to can homemade pie filling and apple sauce from organic apples, I found the amount of damage (bugs) on the fruit that had to be cut away too high, and I felt MORE wasteful, so I now do Upick at a local orchard that uses pesticides.

Sorry this is sooooo long, but one more thought. Yes, there is an increased amount of cancer and disease in the USA, but overall produce consumption has DECREASED, and junk food intake has INCREASED. Dr. Joel Furhman (sp?) (who wrote "Eat to Live")states that although some organic is great, if we could just get the general public to eat vegetables, we'd be much better off.

I try to stick to organic for the dirty dozen and I do opt for rBST/rBGH free dairy although not always organic. My grandfather, a long time dairyman, explained the hormone thing to me this way. It wasn't the hormones that worried him so much. It was the fact that using these hormones made the cows more prone to udder infections and so some dairys - not all, just some - opt to just keep all their cows on low dose antibiotics as a precaution. The antibiotics do get into the milk.

If I come across organic meat, I buy it, but I don't go out of my way. I'm trying to dramatically cut down on the meat in our diet anyway.

When I was in California, we ate mostly organic produce and meat because access was easy. Since we've moved to Pennsylvania it is a little harder, plus our budget is a little tighter. These days my focus has been more on eating locally rather than necessarily organic although they tend to go hand in hand.

Wow! I love a healthy discussion! (Pun intended! ) Kerri, Funny you should mention about not all organics actually being organic, I'll get there in a minute.

As far as journal articles as a basis, I'll admit, I haven't done much homework. The only thing I have to draw on is personal experience in a rural farming area, a fairly good knowledge of science, both mixed in with my business degree. You are right, contamination can happen to any food at any time, organic or not. And after reading some information from the National Organic Program of the USDA, I feel I have a little better understanding of the use of the term organic. But, as with anything else, it all comes down to if the fertilizers used are handled properly and if the produce is then handled properly. Since nonorganic farmers tend to use more synthetic or processed fertilizers, there is less of a risk of contamination from those fertilizers than with organic ones that have hopefully been properly composted or otherwise sanitized. I did read the article you sited by the looney guy that misquoted the CDC and appears to be trying to single handedly take down the organic movement. I agree, he is totally nutty.

Here is my opinion on healthy eating and food in general, take it as you wish. I think that many people get very hung up on if something is organic or not and lose sight of the importance of balanced nutrition. If asked to rank the importance of organic verses sugar content, whole grain/whole foods, hydrogenated oils, and preservatives, truthfully organic would be at the bottom of my list. I truely believe that the most important thing is to get plenty, and I mean A LOT, of fresh vegetables and fruits that are as whole and unprocessed as possible. Then, make sure that what you do eat that is cooked or processed has as few ingredients as possible with no or very little processed sugars and hydrogenated oils. Whole grains can save the world! Then, if you can get organics and it is close in cost, go for it. But if you eat 10 lbs of organic potato chips that are processed 9 ways to Sunday, I don't feel you are getting anywhere.

We all have to remember that everyone associated with our food is in the business to make money. We would like to think they are all in it to better the earth and buy the world a Coke. But, even the companies that certify things organic are doing it to make money. So, one must also be aware that if the USDA has difficulty regulating the meat industry well enough to reduce meat contamination, one can't expect them to suddenly be able to run organics like a well oiled machine. Those who can buy locally and see where it comes from, I think that is the only way to buy organic. And it is much better for the environment than flying in organics from South America. Just remember that just because it says organic, don't get your heart broken when you find out that it may be compromised. Even the NOP that I read states that farms with less than $5,000 annual income can use the term organic without being certified by them. They can be audited, but I wonder how many are.

Bottom line, eat whole foods. Period. (Wow, it looks like I just posted War & Peace!)

Do you factor in other variables, like pesticides and herbicides and the damage they do to our bodies and the ecosystem? Or environmental damage from overuse of synthetic fertilizers?

One health benefit of organic vs. conventional: Organically grown foods (are) higher in cancer-fighting chemicals than conventionally grown foods.

The risks of pesticide use on food:

...non-organic food is likely to be contaminated with (pesticide) residues that often occur in potentially dangerous combinations.

The general consensus with people interested in healthy, sustainable food production is that locally grown is preferable to imported organic. It's a trade off. But just because it's "local" doesn't mean it's good for you, either. If they're using pesticides, herbicides, synthetic fertilizers and such, organic is still better.

I don't like to buy imported produce for several reasons. If it's conventional, it's very likely to have high levels of pesticides. If it's organic, it's expensive and it's taking money out of the pockets of my local organic farmers.

And just because it says "organic" doesn't mean that it was farmed in an ethical, sustainable, humane fashion. There are large agri-business factory farms producing "organic" produce but treat their farmworkers just as badly as conventional factory farms do.

I don't think anyone thinks that an "organic" potato chip is better for you than fresh produce. Any processed food has less nutrition than the fresh version.

In the end, you buy what you can afford and what's available. If health benefits and ethics weigh into the equation, you'll seek out healthy, sustainable, eco-friendly foods, which may or may not end up being "organic." For some, ethics factor into the decision not at all. Others are unconvinced that there's any real health hazard to the conventional chemical-based farming practices. I know that my in-laws are of the mindset that "if it's sold in the stores it isn't "bad" for you, that's what the USDA is for." I don't agree. For many reasons and I don't have time to go into them right now--it's a whole other forum discussion.

Gotta go!

Anhata
www.familynaturally.com
Your Family's General Store, Naturally

Good points Mommyrat. Now, if only "War & Peace" were that easy to read...