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Pardon, me? Comment on this item
 Submitted by Anhata on Mon, 08/29/2005 - 2:39pm.
Is this the kind of behavior that we can be proud of from the President of the United States? White House aides say that he flips the bird often and has done since his days as Governor of TX. How nice. Bookmark/Search this post with: delicious | digg | reddit | google | yahoo | technorati | stumble upon | sk*rt( categories: World Events )
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 Dare I?Ok, I shall. Because I'm extremly cranky and pregnant today and tired of people bringing GW down. And I'm sure it will open a whole big can of worms, especially among some of the company here. But I just can't let it go. And after all, it IS a forum, guess we are supposed to discuss it, right? I guess flipping the bird is no worse than Bill Clinton used to do in the Oral, I mean, Oval Office. And I think you know what I mean (cough, Monica Lewinski). You know what? There are degrees.Yes, Clinton committed adultery in the White House and lied about it. That's two of the commandments right there. You know what? He apologized. To his family, to his colleges, to America. That means, if you proclaim Christianity, you are obliged to "forgive those that tresspasses against us." The current resident of the White House is flipping the bird right and left all the time and has for years, according to his staff. He does it in public. In front of cameras. He thinks there's nothing wrong with it, that it's funny, or if he's mad, that he has a right to flip off his subordinates. If you are a civilian, that's fine. Have a blast, flip a whole flock of birdies at your family and friends, make it into a running gag, fine. But I do not agree that it's OK for the leader of our country to pull these kind of high-jinks when he holds the highest office in the land. He said he was going to "bring back integrity, morality and honesty to the White House." This is morality? This is integrity? I don't think so. I think the office of the President requires a higher level of behavior than those of a Frat House. I have a right to this opinion, and you have a right to disagree. Doesn't mean one of us is right and the other wrong, it means that I hold the President to a standard of behavior that is equivalent to the power and prestige he wields. And flipping the bird at reporters and staffers falls way short of that. You're tired of people bringing GW down? I'm not bringing him down, he is. And I'm sorry you're cranky today, I hope you feel better soon. "If you want your children to be bright, read them fairytales-- if you want them to be brilliant, read them even more fairytales" Albert Einstein  Speaking of...Christianity. Let he who is with out sin cast the first stone. Anywhoo...Like you said, you have a right to your opinion, just as we have a right to ours. sooooo....If flipping the bird was breaking one of the 10 commandments, and he apologized for it, it would be ok then? Also, have you SEEN him do this, or just taking the word of his staff? Clinton admitted to what he did himself, so there is no doubt that he did it. But just because he apologized doesn't mean I forgive him. In my eyes, he brought shame to the office. And what he did was FAR WORSE than a hand gesture. Whether he is "forgiven" or not. Great. He can get into heaven because he admitted it. La-tee-da. Just give him a medal of honor for it. LOL! And for the record, I AM a Christian. Doesn't mean I forgive him. Would I forgive my husband for cheating around on me, even if he apologized for it. Nope. Don't think so. I say pack your bags and don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out. LOL! Yes, we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I think we both are just hitting a brick wall on it. I'll go back to my book now (BTW, I'm reading Ann Coulter's "How to Talk to a Liberal (If You Must)". Thought that was a very funny irony right now. LOL!  behaviorGosh, I really don't like the behavior of either President! Though I liked Clinton's politics for the most part, I despised his behavior in the Oval Office. And though I really don't like a lot of GW's politics, I do think he handles the dignity of the office itself pretty well (except for the flipping the bird thing). The BirdI've been known to throw one or two in DH's direction, all in fun; he gets much worse than that if I’m actually mad. A hick thingMust be! LOL! I do it all the time (and not just to DH. I've been known to give the finger while driving behind some idiot). Hell, me, DH, and FIL do it to each other all the time! LOL! and with my SIL, it's a great joke, because her middle finger is permenantly bent so it won't go down or up, it just stays (from when she was rattlesnake bit on the hand when she was 11 months old). It stays upright from the knuckle to the first joint, then bends down from there. She can't move it, but didn't keep her from being the basketball star in her high school days.  Plenty to go aroundLadies, ladies, there's enough bad behavior for everyone! Why just today I was listening to a radio docudrama of LBJ ripping Hubert Humprey a new one. And Richard "The cussin' Quaker" Nixon probably would have been better served by flipping the bird a few times -- can't catch that on tape! I'm sure I don't like W any better than the next L-word (and I don't mean "lesbian!"), but I do think all that stuff is just so "guy." That's the thing -- politics has been a man's arena for centuries, and that's what you get for it: a bunch of sailor-talking tough guys in thousand-dollar suits.  Re: Plenty to go aroundThat's the thing -- politics has been a man's arena for centuries, and that's what you get for it: a bunch of sailor-talking tough guys in thousand-dollar suits.
 Precisely. You know who I'd rather see as Commander in Chief?? Laura Bush. Seriously. I have the sense that she would bring graciousness, civility, and decorum to the political process in this country. Rose "A Hick Thing"Maybe I'm not "PC", but I had to chuckle a little at this line of conversation. Yeah, maybe it is a "hick" thing. I have lived in Alabama for 37 years and though proper southern ladies don't do it, you see the bird, the finger, etc. a lot. Matter of fact, I saw it tonight at the grocery store. A carload of Mexican guys drove past two college girls honking and hooting at them and they got the bird. I try to control myself, especially after my high school bird story. One night I was exiting a fast food establishment with a friend and a car with boys drove by catcalling. I promptly threw up my middler. Well, wouldn't you know it, my then boyfriend, now DH,'s Christian high school principal was driving by and saw me! So, his impression of me from that point (the outlaw public-school girl) was of the bird! Maybe it's regional, maybe it's just manners. I don't know. I guess it doesn't bother me, but then I have a "W" sticker on the back window of my car. I guess we'll just all have to agree to disagree! Vonnie Here it is...I've thought about this quite a bit and have realized what really bothers me about this. Flipping the bird in the overall scope of Bush's follies is pretty much a Boy Scout picnic. So why did this push a button? The main reason: Because of the double standard. Clinton could do nothing right. Dubya can do nothing wrong. There is nothing that GW could do that would make the media or the true-red conservatives fall out of love with him. He can lie a blue streak, golf on vacation while New Orieans drowns, call for repeals of taxes for the wealthiest 1% of this country as we're poised on the edge of a deep recession, and conservatives'll love him. Because they're in love with the idea of him. He, his staff, and his PR firms have presented us with this portrait of who Bush II is. And a lot of people believe it and adore him. But they're in love with a man who doesn't exist. For those who think Bush is a good 'ol boy, a cowboy, a moral leader, I tell you, he is not the man you think he is. But, unfortunately, no link that I could put here, no article illustrating how his willfully misguided policies are destroying the infrastructure of our country, no documentary or expose will ever convince someone who supports Bush that he isn't the paragon of virtue that he and his people say he is. No amount of photos or vidoes of Bush misbehaving, being callous, or facts (not suppositions or accusations, facts) about his character flaws and his failed policies will ever convince someone otherwise if they don't want to know who and what our president really is. Yes, I was appalled at the whole Monica-Gate scandal. But I did not condemn forever a good man for one (grevious) mistake and accepted his apology as genuine. Yes, there are photos and vides of Bush flipping people off. Yes, if he apologized for wrongdoing, I'd forgive him. I don't think he will because he doesn't think he's ever made a mistake, but if he did, I'd be the first one to stand and applaud him for doing the right thing. In fact, it is my duty to forgive him even without the apology, because my faith requires me to forgive those who tresspass against us. I do not hate Bush. I am not even bashing Bush in this forum topic. I am simply calling a spade a spade. I am simply heart-sick by what's happened to my country. I know that nothing we say will change each others' minds. Which is why the community here has not posted much on political topics since the run up to the election. And I should honor that. My emotions got the better of my rational judgement when I came across another article about Bush's flashing the middle finger. I will try to restrain myself in future. I really, really need to learn not to post when I'm upset. Nothing good ever comes of it. "If you want your children to be bright, read them fairytales-- if you want them to be brilliant, read them even more fairytales" Albert Einstein Since we know where each otheSince we know where each other stands in the political arena, I'm going to say this. Take everything you just said about Bush, insert Clinton, and that is EXACTLY how the other side feels. It's really funny that you said what you said in the way that you said. What I mean is, despite all the lying and cheating and everything else that Clinton did, those on his side still adore him, still believe he was a wonderful President, etc. BUT those on the conservative side see the REAL him (which is exactly what you are meaning if you insert the opposite words. That those on the liberal side see the REAL Bush). You said this: Clinton could do nothing right. Dubya can do nothing wrong. But I see Bush blamed for EVERYTHING that Clinton didn't do. I see the exact opposite from media sources and people, that Bush can do nothing right and Clinton was just perfect. So I guess it's all just perspective. Liberals and democrats are never going to see the same thing as conservatives and Republicans about the same person. It's always going to be good vs. evil with which ever side you are on. And the facts are: they each hate the other side and will bash the other side forever. We just have to agree to disagree. It's just Hannity and Colmes. I love Hannity, hate Colmes. And for liberals, it's just the opposite, they love Colmes, hate Hannity. But they have a show together to argue BOTH sides of the coin, then you can choose whose side you are on. It's like my household when my mother comes to visit. Me and my hubby are Bush people, but my mom, stepfather and grandmother were very John Kerry (or Gore, or Clinton, whoever). We have had to make a "no talking politics" policy when we get together just to make sure the visit goes smoothly. We just agree to disagree and leave it at that. And I think that is what we have to do. We won't ever see the other side, because we all have a different perspective on things. Ok, I think I've talked my self crosseyed. LOL! Hopefully something I said made a little bit of sense (pregnancy hormones mixed with having 2 cavities filled AND a cold and having a house that looks like Katrina hit, plus trying to keep straight with who is planting which field in what so I can take them all their own lunches and get more seed, I'm not thinking straight anymore. LOL!) Words Exiting My Mouth!Jenny, you took the words right out of my mouth. It is true that most likely no one here is going to change their political stance because of a thread. BUT, I believe that it is healthy to voice your opinion and read others' opinions. Again, we do just have to agree to disagree about things. The media is always going to take the liberal stance, putting democrats in a favorable light and bashing republicans at every turn. I guess that's why I've changed to Fox News. It is a little more fair, though definitely more to my liking -- the conservative, republican. I laughed at your post about your family, Jenny. That is my family exactly! My Mom's family is totally democrat. They hate republicans. But, they don't vote. I tell them all the time, if you're going to complain, you need to vote. I registered to vote on my 18th b'day and haven't missed an election yet. So, I tell them that if I don't like what is going on, I can complain all I want! LOL!!! Vonnie Sorry, can't/won't agreeThe whole concept of "two sides" has totally poisoned political discourse in the country and left a whole lot of us with nowhere to stand and no candidate to really stand up and cheer for. The notion that we can never come to understand someone else's perspective or even change our minds and find out we were wrong is one that I will die disputing -- because if I find that's the case, what point is there? Grow or die, that's the law of life. The "two sides" concept has sold a lot of books, made a lot of money for political consultants and radio/TV big mouths, and worked well for many politicians who successfully milk it to sow division and marginalize their so-called opponents. And "black and white" is a lot easier to get your head around than "shades of gray." But if people and issues truly had just two sides things would be a whole lot simpler than they are. IMHO that's the problem with gov't and society: no one is taking the time to find that third, fourth, or fifth "side." The idea that there is a side where everyone thinks Clinton was great and a side where everyone thinks W is great is just flat out wrong. But if you read the news they don't even bother reporting issues, they just give you talking heads who represent "both sides" and consider it covered. Guess that's why complicated issues never get press -- how could you break it down into red and blue? But again, it's so much easier just to say, Oh, *those people on the other side,* they're just different/crazy/stupid and there's no sense talking to them, than it is to say, wow, a lot of people think differently than I do on this issue, people that I respect, so why is that? Maybe you all think I'm totally naive -- what do I know, maybe since I'm a liberal Democrat you "hate" me and think I'm "evil" -- but I'm going to have to stick with it. Shaun p.s. *No one* likes Colmes. You are rightNo one likes Colmes. LOL! But I'll go have Hannity's love child any day. LOL! And you are right about "black and white". I guess for sake of this argument here, it's a black and white issue. I took a gov't class last year at the university, which was especially exciting during the election. And we learned LOTS about the different "sides". Are are many different levels of conservatives and liberals, and others all together (did you know the KKK has their OWN political party!!??). And for that matter, here is something that will SHOCK you! LOL! I voted for the Democrat in the New Mexico's governors race a couple of years ago. Why? Because I figured he would do more for my part of the state than the other guy. In our case, I think Bill Richardson was the lesser of two evils (the other guy was an Albuquerque local and I knew he would barely acknowledge the rural communities). And for the most part, I've been pretty happy with our democrat governor. Except he is really screwing up our education system, but he is helping out our economy. I think that's more than the Republican guy would have done. But I doubt I would vote for him on a national level. WOWThis is my first time on the form. After I read the many points of view I am really sad. What I find sad is that we have allowed ourselfs to be draged down to hating our leaders and each other. Stick around!Sorry Earthmama, I guess it did not occur to me how these little outbursts could be alienating to new forum members. Once you get to know some of us oldsters (like those that go back 5 or 6 years!) you'll see that we are all pretty different but that our differences are what make this forum special. It's kind of like a family -- yeah, we have a few hot buttons and little flare ups, and sometimes we say things we wish we hadn't (or wish we'd said differently), but that's all smaller than the connections we've made. We've calmed down quite a bit. Girl, you would not believe some of the heat generated on hot topics here a few years ago! So don't judge us too harshly -- we've really improved! The ThreadShaun Thank you for the reply. I am kind of torn up over New Orleans and the squable of the two parties camps was a little much. My eldest son and I can't talk in this area. Post new comment |
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I think what Jenny was trying to say (with her overly cranky self 
